Disarming Leviathan with Caleb Campbell #wine #podcast #christiannationalism

Cabernet and Pray Episode 20 with Caleb Campbell and Jeremy Jernigan
Check out the podcast at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/

As we uncork the 20th episode of Cabernet and Pray, I’m joined by Caleb Campbell, not just to relish in our shared love for a fine Cabernet Sauvignon but to unpack the complexities of Christian nationalism. Caleb, a pastor and author, brings his upcoming book “Disarming Leviathan: Loving your Christian Nationalist Neighbor” to the table, serving up a compassionate perspective on an issue that’s stirring the pot in our societal fabric. Together, we navigate the fine line between fellowship and ideology, examining how our understanding of scripture can be distorted and offering a toast to wisdom and authenticity in our communities.

Have you ever found yourself in a place where reaching across the aisle felt more like crossing enemy lines? This episode reveals Caleb’s personal journey through missionary work amidst American Christian nationalism, where an environment of division is met with a message of restoration. Through stories of heart-to-heart engagement and the cultivation of genuine empathy, we shed light on the transformative power of spiritual well-being in bridging divides. As we tackle the concept of ‘hermeneutical magic,’ we guide listeners on how to spot when scripture is being twisted by opportunists masquerading as shepherds.

Wrapping up with a blend of personal victories and shared struggles, this episode of the podcast is a testament to resilience. From the trials of 2020, where Caleb led a congregation through the storm, to the joys of discovery in a French wine cellar, we take you through moments that have shaped his understanding of leadership, community, and self-care. Caleb’s insights, brimming with practical wisdom, elevate our conversation, reminding us of the strength in diverse and authentic communities, the hope that lies ahead with upcoming book releases, and the warm anticipation of family vacations. Raise your glass with us as this episode celebrates the journey of faith, the power of community, and the courage to embrace our differences.

welcome to another episode of Cabernet
and prey the podcast where we explore
Christianity through the beauty of wine
and today is episode
20 I don’t know if this is a milestone
feels like a milestone to me so I
thought I’d just take a moment and and
celebrate 20 episodes feels feels
awesome uh especially when this was kind
of a an idea I had and didn’t know if
it’ work and found out I actually really
have enjoyed these conversations and so
I want to just take a moment and say
thank you thank you to all of you who
have listened who have been a part of
this thank you to those who have watched
this uh really means a lot to me uh the
the times that I get to hear from you
guys have been incredibly meaningful uh
as many a podcaster knows there are days
where you wonder am I just talking into
the void uh who is listening to this
who’s watching this and you know I’ll
run into someone at the gym or get an
email from someone that they’ll tell me
something of an episode that meant a lot
to them
and that’s been super cool so I just
want to say thank you for being along on
this journey I’ve really enjoyed this
and continue to keep working on how to
get better how to improve these
conversations how to keep having
meaningful dialogues and hopefully it is
material that’s helpful and useful to
you as well with that I also do want to
just make a request at the 20 episode
Mark uh if you would and you haven’t
already would you consider giving a
five-star review wherever you listen to
podcast
uh that would help us out obviously
sharing this with other people uh we
have enough episodes now for someone to
drop in and there’s a bunch to check out
right and they could they could dive
into a whole bunch of episodes so if you
would consider uh leaving a festar
review that would mean the world to me
also wanted just to see if You’ consider
sharing your favorite episode if you
have one episode that you’re like man I
really like that one uh would you send
the link to someone and uh and let them
know why that meant a lot to you would
love to keep seeing this grow and to
reach more people with obviously ideas
that have been incredibly meaningful to
me and I’ve heard from a number of you
that you’ve had the same reaction I I
will tell you the thing that surprised
me the most in doing this podcast is how
much I personally am learning and part
of it is you know a lot of these people
are writing books and I’m reading their
book with the intent of I know I’m going
to interview them after I read this and
so I can ask specific questions about
material uh and that’s just been really
cool for me to be able to take the ideas
that they’re putting in the book take
them further uh figure out how to apply
them and that’s really what we’re going
to get with today’s episode as well this
is a book that isn’t even out yet and I
love where today’s conversation goes
today’s episode is with Caleb Campbell
Caleb is uh a pastor at Desert Springs
Bible Church in Phoenix Arizona he’s
been there since 2006 and he’s been the
lead Pastor since 2015
he’s the founder and director of
disarming Leviathan Ministries he’s a
doctoral student at Fuller Theological
Seminary and he serves as the regional
director for the surge network uh Caleb
lives in Phoenix with his wife and his
children and his new book disarming
Leviathan loving your Christian
nationalist Neighbor comes out July 2nd
and so we had a chance to sit down with
Kayla before the book even comes out you
can pre-order this and get a copy this
is an incredible book at a time where
Christian nationalism is a huge deal
even if you haven’t known what it’s
called or what it is uh no doubt as as
you listen or watch this episode you’re
going to realize oh that’s what they’re
talking about I’ve seen this uh this is
another book I I strongly easily
recommend to you and I’m grateful for
the conversation with Caleb that you get
to enjoy today and just the incredible
thoughtfulness of his answers so enjoy
episode 20
I’ve never shared this with anybody
publicly there’s so many things Happ in
this conversation right now thousand
years from now people are going to be
looking at this podcast saying so this
was the Breakthrough if this was Sports
Center that would be like such a hot
take skip bis would have no idea Stephen
A Smith would have no idea what to say
if you drop that down that is so good
yeah I actually this is my third bottle
so I got I I misunderstood the
instructions and the premise of the
podcasting you the joke I always say is
like how did you learn so much got to
drink a
lot the power of food and beverage to
lubricate an environment resistance to
change is hurting the church I’m not in
the camp that God has a penis or a
vagina or a body at all I’m in the camp
that God is at Universal spirit this is
the strangest podcast that I have been
on I don’t even know what to
do I’m kind of geeked up about this wine
you’ve uncovered the mystery you’ve
exposed the formula you’ve just duct
taped together a number of things that
aren’t normally hanging out together and
I’m here for it we’re going to sit down
at table we’re going to have a glass of
wine and some food and we’re going to
talk about the beauty of Jesus thank you
for the the hospitality that this
particular podcast provides folks like
myself and I know others to to be
curious around their faith practices I
will never forget the first time I
bought a bottle of wine by myself which
was yesterday if you’re familiar with
Drunk History I thought it’s like drunk
theology so I by the way drinking this
peo graio with 3:00 in the afternoon is
making me even more direct in my
communication than I normally would
[Music]
be well Caleb welcome to the podcast
today it’s so great to have you before
we dive in let’s talk about what we’re
drinking that sound means that it’s time
for me to talk about something delicious
that I have in my glass I actually have
a 2019 bolo uh this is from Italy it’s a
region in Italy with the nebbiolo grape
so if you guys have ever had the
nebbiolo grape I’m a I’m a fan as I was
enjoying this one I got a lot of
tertiary stuff but I got Cherry syrup
Cola and then wood smoke sweet tobacco
and Leather So if you like a little bit
more earthiness to your red wine nebiolo
is a great one for you so Caleb how
about you what are you drinking today uh
Jeremy I’m a
patriot uh and I am drinking today the
Federalist handsomely adorned with a
image of Benjamin Franklin uh this is a
cabernet salol from Loi and I am told
that I should be tasting hints of black
cherry uh a out of this rich full bodied
wine and uh my palette is not
sophisticated so it tastes like wine
okay but patriotic wine okay so here’s
the here’s the most important question
do you like it yeah dude that’s all that
really matters loving it we we
complicate things but at the end of the
day there’s wines you like there’s wines
you don’t like drink the wines you like
and hopefully uh for the listeners
Watchers of this pod you’ve you’ve been
you know exposed to new wines and and
new things and that’s part of the fun of
what we’re doing but we will get to it’s
amazing that he’s got who he’s got on
that bottle that’s going to come in here
in just a second um I want to begin with
a question just to help us get a get a
little idea of who is Caleb this is one
of my favorite questions to ask most of
our guests the question is very open
ended take it wherever you want uh the
question is how has your faith changed
in the last 10 years so I love showing
people the trajectory that faith is
growing it is dynamic it’s not just
you’ve got everything figured out and
then you White Knuckle it till you die
love to hear your your journey what’s
the last 10 years look like for you yeah
well I mean a a lot of change
um one really core one is shifting from
a view of the
church uh as a bounded entity meaning
something with borders that you have to
you know get in uh through a certain
boundary marker um so that there’s an
ingroup and outgroup moving from a
bounded idea of the church so this would
be like certain doctrinal statements
that determine who’s an Insider who’s an
outsider certain cultural practices
who’s an Insider who’s an outsider uh
but rather seeing the church as a
centered organization or a centered
reality namely it’s centered on Christ
and that I am in Fellowship uh with
anyone else whose posture towards the
center is the same as mine namely we’re
following Jesus so we may articulate the
text differently we may come from
different cultural backgrounds we may
have
different uh ideologies of how we
articulate Jesus but if you’re a
disciple of Jesus and I’m a disciple of
Jesus then we’re part of the church and
we can hold Fellowship together uh and a
lot of that just came from studying you
know really the New Testament I mean
Jesus is always putting Misfits at his
table they don’t belong together
according to the kingdoms of this world
uh and then the Apostle Paul really
caught this vision of the church when he
like in Ephesians he says that the the
the manifold wisdom or the multicolored
multifaceted wisdom of God is put on
display when the the whole church is
Unified uh across all these boundary
markers and we’re unified not in our
Comon convictions or political
preferences or economic status but we’re
United in Christ so that shift some I
mean you could refer to as an
ecclesiological shift from the church as
a bounded entity people have to believe
certain things before they belong and
shifting that to a centered approach
that if you’re following Jesus and so am
I then we’re
disciples would you would you say that
Christians are good at this no no no
humans aren’t good at
this we
are so desperate for safety and
belonging that we answer it not with the
Beauty and the the beautiful vision of
the kingdom of God that scares us so we
draw the boundaries closer to home so we
can feel safe and so we can find
belonging with people who are similar to
us uh and Christians are have many times
we’ve organized entire structures around
defining who’s in and who’s out so that
I can feel safe and if you transgress
the boundary you’re out we’re really
good with the boundary yeah a lot of
times we are and I think that that comes
just from a deep deep longing for safety
and belonging and we forget about the
resurrection we forget that Jesus is
present with us now and that he can bear
the weight of our differences um and
that he can Empower us to do it so
instead we defer to boundary
making yeah I love that I want to dive
into your book you wrote this book
that’s coming out soon disarming
Leviathan and there’s there’s so many
ideas here we’re going to get to a
handful of them that I I just really
enjoyed but one of the things reading
this you you casually threw into detail
like later in the in the book that it
was almost like you just kind of like
worked it in like no big deal and I
gotta tell you someone who you know this
is the first time you and I have met I
don’t know a ton of your story outside
of this book so I’m reading it and all a
sudden I’m like holy cow like okay
there’s there’s the fun fact uh you you
have this line in my teens I gave up on
church and became a Neo-Nazi skin head
yep and you say it so casually in the
book like well of course that’s what I
did you know of course like obviously
that’s that’s what got me here to most
of us you know that’s like a oh I I
don’t know a lot of Neo-Nazi skin heads
uh that wasn’t my my group in high
school what was that Journey like for
you you you obviously discussed a little
bit in the book but just tell us about I
mean that’s an extreme stance to take
that you sure went there and then came
out of
it yeah yeah um
so one of the reasons why I didn’t draw
attention to it sooner is I didn’t want
the book to be
about that part of my life primarily um
I I actually Wrestled a lot with do I
include it or not
because I’m an a pastor of an
Evangelical Bible Church in North
Phoenix and I’m very familiar with the
Evangelical industrial complex that
likes to make money on
um showcasing these really you
know the the these stories of radical
life change and
ignoring the small way the spirit of God
works in everybody’s life yeah you know
this kind of this spectacle in testimony
stories so I know that you say the words
exactly said you Nazi skin head that
there there’s a spectacularization of
that that I was trying to
avoid um because I don’t I don’t want to
discount count people who don’t have a a
story where everyone goes oh my goodness
you know wow um because Jesus power is
made known in all of our lives uh it’s
just some things get
really um elevated and platformed over
others and so I didn’t want to platform
that you know because it’s spicy it’s
attention getting it’s yeah it’s
tramatic and I want to play into that I
did feel though that I needed to show
that everything I’m arguing for in the
book worked on me and so I did share it
but I I did I I had a few folks who read
early copies and they were like you’re
burying the lead and so that that was
why I made that decision the journey for
me was um in uh in that season of my
life I was so desperate to find safety
belonging and purpose and I found it in
that Community um they invited me in
they gave me safety we’re going to have
each other’s back we we refer to each
other’s
Brothers um there was access to you know
Manpower and protection and girls and
beer and uh the ideology really comes
second uh adhering to the ideology was
only in service of belonging to the
community um what I mean is I wasn’t
like sitting down reading books and like
reasoning myself to Neo-Nazi skin head
and then saying I should find some like
minded individuals no it’s you’re at a
party you start hanging out they invite
you out next week week and you just
slowly get discipled and then what what
happens is you they’re saying you know
we believe in this we believe in this
and so you’re kind of like nodding your
head and then you find one day you’re
like actually I believe this uh and so
there’s an inculturation that
happens I I think that happens to all of
us and so the fact that it’s NE skin
head is certainly spectacle but it is
something that’s common to the whole
Human
Experience I mean got to imagine your
your family friends you know have to be
concerned by this season of time yeah
yeah for sure yeah I
mean finding I was Finding friendship in
the movement yeah um I mean when I got
out of it I had very few friends left uh
you know family certainly expressed some
concerns I usually played it down um you
know wouldn’t admit what I was doing
uh and you know and I was also like
leaving the house you know so it’s kind
of that you know 18 19 years old phase
two where it’s kind of like what are you
gonna do yeah uh I mean I wasn’t like
13 I think I was like 15 or 16 when I
started hanging out with the with the
crew so you’ve come a long
way many who knew you maybe in that
season would be perhaps surprised to see
Caleb the pastor today who uh is is
really developed has you’ve developed a
heart for uh people wrapped up into
Christian nationalism in particular and
I love the way you present it in the
book uh for those who are listening or
watching who haven’t read it you say it
this way I realized in that moment that
this woman and the multitude of others
influenced by American Christian
nationalism were not an enemy to attack
they were a mission field to reach and
then you say I set out to be a
missionary to American Christian
nationalists which is is a great premise
right we think of missionaries typical
person thinks oh you’re moving abroad
you’re you’re going and you’re like no
I’m a missionary to this group of people
and you have an interesting history with
them one of the things that fascinated
me in the book is you talk about in your
posture as this American missionary you
spend a lot of time going to Christian
nationalist Gatherings
and and you you you write these stories
and you you do it very objetive I
applaud you it’s very objective you know
in in the book I want to get to the the
emotional part of that was that hard to
do I mean when you’re sitting in these
gatherings and you do such a good job of
like here’s what they’re arguing and
here you know and it’s very good and
your Publishers should be proud but I
want to know Caleb the person when
you’re sitting there is your adrenaline
going I mean like that’s got to be tough
yeah
um it it’s it’s like uh learning a new
technique or learning a new skill the
first few times I’m feeling all sorts of
things but eventually you develop a
muscle to withstand uh you know profound
emotion in those spaces especially I
think for me the big switch was you know
Shi shifting from viewing uh the people
in the room as enemies uh to defeat and
instead saying okay this is a mission
field I felt that even though there was
a lot of disgust welling up derision
welling up in my heart um shame frankly
because these are my people I mean I one
of the things that’s different in this
work than crosscultural Mission work is
there’s family shame in the sense of
like I come from this people they’re me
everyone in this room is me yeah these
are my people um and so I you know when
I find when I hear them say something
that I think is disgusting I feel shame
by
association uh once I’m able to name
that uh and then say okay but they’re
caught in something and I have it shifts
sometimes by the power of the spirit to
compassion um like I’m I’m sorry that
you are finding hope in what you just
said uh but I I love that you’re asking
that question 98% of the work is in my
own
heart so if I’m rolling into these
rallies or these revivals or these big
events uh embittered ragy anxious uh
it’s not going to go well and I’m
probably going to cause more damage to
myself and to others but if I can do the
work of staying connected to the Lord
taking naps right like having people
pray for
me pray in the parking lot praying for
the people that I’m going to encounter
and say Lord help me see them as you see
them help me to see what they can become
by your power um you know those are all
ways that we practice practice
the um the verse I mean this has been an
anchor verse for me but practicing
Galatians 61 and2 which says if any of
you is INS snared or entangled or caught
up in an evil or transgression you who
are spiritually mature seek to restore
that person gently and watch out for
your own
self lest you two be tempted therefore
bear one another’s burdens and so
fulfill the law of Christ and that watch
out for your own self uh that has been
crucial for me because if if I’m
unhealthy uh if I’m not in a a position
of resting in the Lord and trusting in
his power and being Guided by the spirit
then I’m not doing missionary work I’m
doing colonizer work I’m just demanding
that you guys be like me and throw the
league Greenwood CD away and quit eating
a Cracker Barrel and you know take that
bumper sticker off your car you heathens
right like that’s where I go if I’m not
healthy and uh if I’m not watching out
for my own self um and it can shift like
in the moment it can shift and that’s
again 98% of the work is in my own
heart that’s beautiful H how would you
recommend because I think every
Christian could take this stance right
and whatever you would view as perhaps
your mission field anybody that’s
following Jesus that wants to positively
bring what they’ve experienced about
Jesus for others could have the same
approach what are some tips that you
found you mentioned people praying over
you take some naps how can people how
can people develop the muscle that you
have been developing yeah I think
spiritual rhythms of um contemplation so
just especially before and after uh an
encounter could be going to an event
could just be meeting with Aunt Betty
over
coffee
um asking Lord what where is my heart
today uh in one of the Psalms it says
Lord search me and know me see if there
is any errant way in me
and Lead me back to the path of
righteousness and that’s an invitation
like Lord I don’t always know what’s
going on my own heart what is going on
would you reveal it to me yeah in any
errant way I want to be drawn back to
your path and then after uh the
encounter with the person or the
people what am I feeling uh putting
names to what I’m feeling taking that to
the Lord in prayer talking it through
with somebody um in like I said in every
missionary I know has a prayer team
and so sending text hey I’m going to
this rally tonight can you guys pray for
me would some of you follow up with me
um those are some good practices to be
in also uh consistent rhythms of prayer
like if I’m going to go meet with
somebody and I I I’m guessing that the
conversation might become
antagonistic uh just to pray Lord I’m
sensing that this will become
antagonistic I’m feeling anxiety about
it would you help me to attend to your
presence now and in the meeting and help
me to see this person for what you’re
making them into not for how they’re
exhibiting themselves in this meeting
that’s good and that again that’s just
it’s a it’s developing the muscle yeah
which takes repetition repetition
repetition that’s good in the book you
reference a question that you got from
another podcast and I’m not above
stealing great ideas from other
absolutely and I also agree with you it
was it was a great question the question
is what is something that you used to
believe that it turned out later you
were wrong about such a good question
you address it in the book what are some
answers you you’d have to that oh for me
yeah um tons of stuff
uh one critical one to this work
especially is I used to believe that we
changed in our brains
first that we we would say things like I
think think differently about that now
uh I used to believe that belief was
primarily in the
head uh facts right data that that
people would change when they would see
new facts and data uh and over time I’ve
come to believe that true change happens
not in the head but in the heart that uh
we are feeling creatures and then we
post Hawk logic
ourselves um we have this thing back
when we used to go to grocery stores
before like home delivery and drive up
you know trunk delivery stuff um and
there was this thing called the impulse
buy if anyone who’s listening or
watching has been to Costco and you go
in for something and you come out with
more
things uh those are impulse buys and
what we do is we feel something we feel
it and then we say to ourselves I needed
this
I I always said we needed a $400 ice
cream machine I’ve been looking for that
yeah yeah exactly like I I definitely
had it on the list I I might not have
written it down but it was definitely on
the list uh and many of our decisions
and uh political and Theological and
philosophical commitments uh they’re
inculturated in us and we feel ourselves
to those things and then we add
reasoning later which is helping me to
make sense of like how can these people
this person sitting in front of me think
so differently than I do hold to such
blatantly what I think is blatantly
wrong convictions and then I present
them with good data and there’s no
change uh it’s helpful to me to notice
like if they don’t feel safe in our
relationship if they don’t feel like
we’ve connected heart-to- heart uh
there’s no change it’s just defend
defend defend defend defend uh argue
argue argue argue argue and by shifting
um that understanding we can help make
sense of like why these people are why
this person is yelling and screaming why
I’m yelling and screaming uh about a
fact or an opinion uh because there’s
something deeply going there’s something
going on deep in my heart uh that feels
under threat and I gotta you know fight
for that whatever it might be that was a
huge aha moment for me reading your book
and I I shared this with a friend of
mine you you you kind of make this
argument that
you know similar to what you said of
your own Journey with being a Neo-Nazi
skin head the people in Christian
nationalism didn’t reason their way into
this it became something that met a me a
need for them and there’s a belonging
and all that and you know you make the
point like you’re not going to just
logically talk them out of it because
that’s not what got them into it I I
think that was like an ahop for me
because I Am The Logical guy you know
it’s like I I I love logic I love a good
argument and my kids know like if you
want to get something from Dad and I say
no you have to just logically work your
way through it and if I’m impressed with
your logical argument I’m a softy I’ll
be like you know what I didn’t want to
do this that was such a great line of of
reasoning I’m gonna reward it you know
and then they just know like if we can
present a really good case to that you
know and I just I I am that person and
it was it was the AHA for me of I am the
guy that’s like hey let me give you a
really good book on this that you know
help me
and thinking like this is going to be
the same aha for them that it was for me
right and your book kind of like helped
me to relax to be like that’s that’s not
that’s not the way it’s going to work
it’s gonna have to be this deeper thing
and you do such a good job of explaining
that but I think to anyone who may have
had the same confusion I’ve had of like
why are they not listening to this
killer argument I say this amazing
YouTube clip right yeah it didn’t change
them well it’s because they didn’t
logically get to there thing and I don’t
know if you’ve read Jonathan height but
he talked about the the elephant and the
writer and that made me think of you
know we have this writer that’s like
this is how why I’m doing it well the
reality is he’s riding an elephant that
goes where it wants and then he explains
why the elephant’s going there after
it’s already there yep and there’s so
much to that really good but we’ll keep
moving um another phrase I took from
your book that I’d never heard before
and I loved it and you you credit one of
your friends with this phrase the phrase
is hermeneutical magic yes and I I love
this phrase and and this is how your
friend explained it magicians rely on
distraction and slight of hand to
accomplish their goals they are skilled
at directing your gays where they want
so they can achieve their deception in
the same way American Christian
nationalist leaders use scripture to
misdirect the attention of Their
audience this is a profound way of
describing in my opinion not only
Christian nationalism but a lot of what
happens in evangelicalism today how can
someone learn to recognize this what are
the signs they go whoa whoa whoa there’s
some slide of hand here how can people
get better at uh an awareness of that
yeah great um so a
few ways that we can discern how a
person is making an argument from
scripture is uh do they have a
hostile or curious View
of the different arguments what I mean
is if they’re advocating for something
saying that script scripture is clear on
this thing if they’re hostile towards uh
different
views uh that’s one thing to notice like
this person may be just using this as a
proof text um a second piece would be uh
the distance between the text and the
application here’s what I mean
uh I’ve been in spaces where purveyors
of American Christian nationalism will
say something like this the Bible is
clear okay so just notice that that
statement the Bible is clear which means
if you don’t sense Clarity with what I’m
about to say you’re an idiot the Bible
is clear okay so the Bible is clear
Jesus said love our neighbor as ourself
that is in the text okay so great love
neighb which mean
dot dot dot yeah we have to protect our
god-given Second Amendment rights to
bear arms because you can’t love your
neighbor as yourself if they’re being
attacked obviously you can’t protect
them from someone with a gun if you
don’t also have a gun now the distance
between the text and that application is
there is a great Chasm between them I’m
not saying that a person cannot get
there okay but what I’ve done is I’ve
said I did all the work for
you uh if Jeremy I don’t know if you
remember uh in elementary school
something called long
division uh math I hated those math
worksheets there’s like there’s these
worksheets they would set home little
eight and a half by piece of paper and
there’d be four problems on the math
homework and a ton of Blank Space the
blank space was so that we could do the
work yeah and if we got the right answer
but we didn’t do the work our teachers
would dock us and they’d say you got to
do the work what a purveyor of um this
uh hermeneutical hermeneutical magic is
doing is they’re quote unquote doing the
work for
you and if they can’t show the work it’s
likely proof texting or hermeneutical
magic it’s not likely an actual
conviction uh or a something that’s been
prayed through and thought through it
may just be a proof text for their point
so if if you can sit a person down and
say help me understand how you got from
the Golden
Rule
to we should own Bazookas like do do
some of that work for me yeah third if
they are
unwilling to receive critical good faith
critical questions about how they got
from the text to that point it’s likely
that it’s not an argument from actual
conviction or at least a conviction that
comes from the text and one way frankly
for I’m concerned about this I mean I’m
a pastor I’m very concerned that I’m
reading my con you know previously uh
acquired convictions into the text uh
and so one of the ways that I can keep
myself from doing proof texting or
hermen hermeneutical magic is to read
the text and study the text with a
diverse Community who sees the text very
differently than I do this could be done
through books this can be done just
listening to different Christian
Traditions who are talking about the
same text uh and often times um when we
come to actual convictions we say things
like you know this is how I understand
the text this is how I’m thinking about
it what do you think as opposed to every
Christian who reads the Bible should
believe that love your neighbor as
yourself means gun
RS that’s so good you know what reminds
me when I was a lead Pastor I would
often say things like hey as your pastor
today I’m going to present um you know
this idea and I’m going to share with
you what makes the most sense to me and
then I would say you’re welcome to
disagree with me and there are other
Christians throughout history and
throughout the world who have other
understandings of what we’re going to
talk about today yeah I’m G to share
with you what I have found to be the
most compelling way to make sense of it
and I would I would put that disclaimer
in and I always thought like no one can
argue if you make a disclaimer like that
right because I’m literally saying this
is not the only way to see to see it
this is just the way that makes sense to
me you’re welcome to disagree and I was
always surprised how much animosity I
got in response to that people going no
Pastor don’t say that tell us what you
know what it is and it was like no I’m
I’m aware there are three dominant ways
that the church has interpreted this one
passage right and so I’m gonna give you
the one that I think’s most compelling
but I’m I’m not gonna belittle this and
there’s just something to that um I I
wonder in your experience do people who
are who are doing the hermeneutical
magic is it intentional or is it they’re
not even aware they’re doing it I think
it’s both I think there’s grifters and
True
Believers um usually the True Believers
have been inculturated into this way of
understanding the text so if you’re
surrounded by people who say this is how
we do Bible then this is how we do Bible
uh right it’s that movement from We
believe We believe We Believe to well I
believe I believe I believe right we we
receive the conviction through
inculturation so if I’m part of a church
or a denomination or a local network of
churches that all talk that same way I’m
learning that that’s how you do
Bible um it’s only when I’m exposed to
very different
views uh that I have an invitation to
think wait am I am
I isolated here uh in this view am I not
being gracious or generous with you know
understanding people from different
Traditions or cultures or ethnic
ethnicities to speak to this text um
frankly if everyone I learn the Bible
from thinks like I do and looks like I
do I’m probably going to create a
develop a myopic view of how the Bible
works but I think that’s how the Bible
works so I think there’s in Earnest
there are a lot of folks who are uh
propagating this way of treating the
scriptures they really do think love
your neighbor as yourself means gun
rights or or build the wall what you
know whatever the thing
is um at the same time there are
grifters there have always been grifters
uh in the book of Acts there’s this
character called Simon the Sorcerer who
asks to get the power of the Holy Spirit
in order to make
money and uh in the Medieval Era and
maybe before actually I should do some
more reading on this uh it was called
simony
the idea that I’m going to use that
which is sacred to generate
Revenue uh I’m going to use the power of
scripture uh to Garner for myself wealth
Allegiance and power uh there’s this oh
Jeremy did you ever see the movie um The
Book of Eli yeah okay Denzel Washington
like late 2000s I think 2008 is when it
came out I love this uh I I believe it
was a graphic novel but I don’t read um
so uh it was a movie so I watched the
movie uh and in the movie there is this
scene between the uh protagonist and
antagonist so Denzel Washington’s like
the main figure and he confronts this
kind of like this mayor of a small town
in you know post nuclear war America and
this this figure Gary Oldman plays this
character he’s on the hunt for a book
The Book of Eli and now Denzel’s
character happens to be carrying this
book and he’s trying to get it to this
certain place where the book belongs
according to him and spoiler alert the
book is the
Bible uh the Gary Oldman character wants
the
Bible because he he says it in the movie
I want those words have power if we are
going to try to Captivate this community
and grow civilization I need that book
well that’s simony that’s Le that’s
taking the sacred and using it for
personal
gain and there are many grifters uh some
of them American Christian nationalists
some of them in other spaces I mean
there’s just always grifters who want to
use the power of the text for personal
gain and when we’re talking to our loved
ones people in our church people in our
school people in our community and
they’re quoting some of these leaders
uh we can pray for discernment Lord is
that someone who’s a True Believer but
they’re incorrect or is that a grifter
who’s you know just seems to be using
the text for their own personal gain and
one of the ways that you can tell um is
their
character uh are they mean-spirited are
they dehumanizing are arrogant
combative um because every one of us is
holding to some heresy and we we do it
in good faith we think that we’re
holding on to something true uh but the
grifter is simply leveraging the power
of the text for personal gain and the
way that you can tell is look at their
life and and Jesus tells his followers
look at the fruit of those who say
they’re doing stuff in my name and
that’s how you can discern uh you know
the grifter from the True
Believer man as I’m listening to you
talk I’m
thinking all of Christendom is set up
for Griff
for simony yeah dude the the inherent
hey if you believe this you’re going to
be respected and you’re going to be more
power more Prestige more this and that
and you know for hundreds and hundreds
of years and I I would argue that the
history of the church in America you
know it has been this Christendom model
that has rewarded simony is and you know
people might take shots at mega churches
is like that’s where you see it but it’s
all over the place it’s everywhere yeah
and that
is now you know hermeneutical magic is a
killer phrase dude I I love that that is
I’m gonna keep that one keep do it’s not
mine it’s James I know I love it that’s
a good one uh okay so you have this
other quote Katherine uh I don’t know
Hao notes uh for most of us the value of
belonging far outweighs the value of
attaining new information especially if
publicly accepted information and
speaking up might lead to a negative
outcome an argument the cold shoulder or
even ostracism from your social group so
you talk about here and again this is a
theme we’ve already discussed it a few
times but this idea of how belonging
drives us into what we believe as I was
reading that my thought was where do I
hear more talk about belonging than I do
anywhere else and it’s in churches
churches are the ones that love this
word hey welcome home I mean how many
churches say that right welcome home
what is that that is a that is a
statement trying to grab all of your
emotions you belong here you know all
this so my question then is uh obviously
we all want to belong this is some deep
need inside of us how do we Foster a
healthy sense of belonging that protects
us from falling into some of these other
things where we get so far into it we go
what on Earth am I believing how do we
how do we do a better job inside and out
of the Church of fostering belonging
yeah it’s a great question yeah there’s
kind of a pseudo belonging um hey when
we’re in the room together we belong
together so I see that a lot in churches
like the minister will get up and say
hey
family well that’s that’s a pretty
strong claim Bud like who’s the dad also
like are you the you know that kind of
thing um Jesus did refer to the church
as a as a body yeah right um
and as a an an
inter the New Testament gets into the
idea that we’re all
interwoven that the church is a body or
a
temple um you do have language of
brothers and sisters so I I get the
familial
language um but we are brothers and
sisters not not like kings and subjects
so I I think there’s some good there but
it can be distorted be into something
that is meeting a need
in a in a false or fabricated way like
you’re a member quote unquote at this
church therefore you belong if you leave
you no longer belong or if you ask the
wrong questions you no longer belong or
if you don’t conform to the doctrinal
statement you don’t belong this is the
bounded set the bounded idea of the
church uh so thinking about how do we
nurture community
and this is the way that I’ve understood
it is Jesus showed
us uh that true discipleship happens at
tables centered on him and it’s tables
full of
Misfits I mean just thinking about who
was at the tables that Jesus
Set uh you’ve got the rich and the poor
the elite and the downtrodden you’ve got
co-conspirators against the empire with
collaborators of
Empire um you’ve got Mafia esque figures
and those who have been subject to their
reign you’ve got uh religious Elite next
to pimps and
prostitutes and it’s at the
table of uh that you find community of
Misfits because you’re anchored not in
your common affinities but you’re com
you’re you’re anchored by
Jesus and when we can see the space
between us as
gifts as an opportunity for me to grow
in
christlikeness uh then we can start to
see that spiritual maturity is the
capacity to carry the distance between
you and me when I can pursue
heart-to-heart
relationships getting to know someone
not their facts and
opinions but their deep feelings and
needs this would be called intimacy uh
into me see when I can say and and
commit to uh a group of
people um you can see into me and I can
see into
you and I recognize that there is a vast
difference on these parts of us but and
while I’m not agreeing with you I still
want you and me to be in good deep
relationship and I’m willing to carry
the distance between you and me and if
you’re willing to carry the distance
between you and me and do stuff like
prac rce the fruit of the spirit when we
talk and hang out uh then we can do this
thing called friendship uh for the next
six to seven decades how you know
whatever how old you’re gonna live
um groups
like uh American Christian nationalist
movement Cults they
fabricate a distorted version of
belonging by me of Conformity of
conviction culture or
posture and so the I belong is
answered because I feel like we all
believe and behave the same way but true
belonging is we’re both willing to be
heart-to-heart with each other and carry
the distance between us uh because what
I want more than Conformity of belief
and behavior is I want you and me to see
into each other to know each other and
CS Lewis uh my favorite book is the four
loves I’m a pastor I’m supposed to say
my favorite book is the Bible so the
Bible but after that it’s the four loves
and my favorite chapter of any book is
his chapter on
friendship he talks of friendship as
something that has been recognized as
something even deeper than romantic
relationships because
friends look he says lovers look at each
other and say you know we’re in this for
what we get out of each other but
friends look at something else and say
do you see the same thing I see and when
that something else can be anchored in
Jesus then we can maintain every
distance between us because we’re
anchored in something outside of us
whereas romance is usually anchored in
in the other friendship Is Anchored In
something external to the relationship
yeah so healthy relationship is hey are
you following Jesus me
too shall we enter into to a deep
friendship with each other um and we
just keep our eyes fixed on Jesus not on
the differences between you and
me that’s so much deeper than what we
think of when we think of belonging you
know and and I think of like in churches
and I very much I very much own what I’m
about to say so don’t this is not a
critique on others this is I was I was
definitely one of these guys but you
know I think about the last two churches
I was a part of one of the things we
really pushed emphasis on was window
stickers you know for logo of the church
and you know where where I live it’s
very common most churches have them and
nothing inherently wrong with that and I
remember you know thinking at the time
and you know even the church I was LE
pastor of we pushed these really hard of
like what a great way to have
conversation and you know and and
obviously make a like hey this is
something I’m a part of and it mean
something and I would get asked about it
and all that and always just saw the
good in it and I remember one day after
all this after I I had left the ministry
uh had someone asked me about they’re
like what’s the deal with all these
Church stickers on the cards you know
and I’m like oh let me explain how
beautiful is and they made this
observation they’re like it’s like a
bunch of Christian gangs and you’re all
GS and you’re you’re saying gang sign
you’re a part of yes and I had never
thought of it like from that point of
view and I was like oh I could totally
see how with such an outward display of
belonging right I’m in this community
yeah so then now even if you’re a
Christian well you’re not you’re not the
same logo Christian that I am on my car
you know and it’s just amazing how if if
that is all belonging is right then it
really breaks down but I love your your
idea of like it’s got to be this
connection between us and truthfully I
think that’s not found in a lot of
churches right like that’s where people
are going hey I I I said in in a life
group that I disagreed with something
and now they’re shunning me you know
like there doesn’t feel like there’s
that bonding but when people find it
it’s incredibly powerful yeah yeah um
tribalism is an attempt to make a
community of people feel safety and
belonging and purpose by means of
defining who is in and who is
out and
one way that tribalism toxic tribalism
can be propagated is through totems like
a bumper sticker a slogan a t-shirt uh a
rhetoric um a pledge these are all means
of saying I we belong together because
of this
Affinity the Jesus movement says you
have nothing in
common except for me and so we’re not
bound together by a common
status or even a common idea were bound
together
by God in
flesh death burial resurrection and a
common hope so I think when you know
Paul says we have one Lord one hope One
Faith one baptism he’s not looking at
Earthly
affinities uh he’s looking at Jesus is
the one who anchors us
together and and we too often
are quick to take the cheap substitute
that doesn’t require anything of me
namely a
logo a slogan uh a
title um in and I think it’s because we
don’t actually want to be
vulnerable because if I am inviting you
to see into me you could really hurt me
and that would make me feel not safe and
I don’t want to do that Jeremy so
instead why don’t you just wear the same
logo that I wear and we’ll just
pretend this Pleasant illusion that we
are having deep communion and and here’s
how you know it’s not deep
communion when you start to say actually
I don’t like what you’re doing so I’m
just going to go get a new
logo well that’s there’s no Intimacy in
that right um I think that the ancient
view of friendship had a lot more in
common with what we call Covenant
marriage than we give it credit for
there’s this bonding that happened maybe
certainly not necessarily
ceremonially but friendship was
understood as something about um two
bodies and one
heart and that’s a very vulnerable
vulnerable position to be in yeah it’s
also very beautiful yeah Lewis would say
um yeah if you want to be completely
safe lock yourself in a casket
where no one can touch you that’ll do it
that’ll do
it okay so another another image you use
and you’ve you referenced this a little
bit in your last answer so it was a
great it was a great setup you didn’t
know I was going here but thank you for
transitioning us uh you say this while
some are called to that prophetic
Ministry of table flipping I.E speaking
God’s truth often to those in power many
more of us are called to reach the
people who have been ens snared by
Christian nationalism by engaging in the
ministry of table setting I really like
the contrast you create here of table
flipping or table setting uh my journey
has been much more of the table flipping
that is that has been what I have been
called to do and have the scars to show
it and you know teach their own uh you
have definitely been more of the table
setter and I do think that’s what more
people are called to uh for someone who
wants to set the table well what are
some takeaways you’ve learned how how do
they do that
yeah um and and I would uh stand in
solidarity with you Jamie Jeremy that my
instinct is flip the table I mean my my
one of my deepest needs for things to be
right
Justice and that was my initial posture
towards the American Christian
nationalist movement was let’s just get
in there flip tables but Jesus flipped
tables you know and and there’s time for
that uh but he said so tables as you
read through the gospels and one
Theologian says that Jesus ate his way
through the
gospels and I love that because it’s at
the table whether it’s the communion
table the kit table or the pub table
that we have an
invitation to enter into safety
belonging and purpose through
friendship and so methods for setting t
for table setting Ministry is um
having a recognition that I’m going to
carry some burden here when I invite
this person or these people to my table
they’re going to say and do things that
cause my heart to express feelings that
I don’t like feeling sadness anxiety
rage disappointment What Fear whatever
it might be and so I want to be in a
healthy
position uh Lord what’s going on in my
heart is I’m anticipating this meeting
so that I can be a hospitable host I
mean Jesus didn’t seem to get riled up
when the people who are at his table got
riled
up uh how can I be like Jesus and attend
to his presence in this Gathering again
whether it’s my home the pub the church
you know the community table whatever it
is um and then approaching people with
genuine
curiosity so somebody might say
something that you think is abhorent
derisive crazy unstable
whatever uh instead of fighting fire
with fire a way to practice hospitality
is to lean into curiosity tell me more
about that even to honor the good in the
thing or the statement that you didn’t
like for instance you might say a Betty
I love that you care so much about that
thing so Aunt Betty’s yelling and
screaming at the dinner table about you
know immigrants flooding into the
country and taking all of our jobs and
what whatever it might be you say I love
that you care about our community so
much I also love our community right so
you can practice Hospitality by
connecting on shared
values um and no matter where the
conversation goes to recognize what’s
going on in my own heart and if I’m
becoming anxious or
ragy I have an invitation then to pause
the meeting or to stop the conversation
and say this is really important stuff
we’re talking about here and I need time
to process it and so can we meet back
together and this is key for Hospitality
can we meet back together next week um
um because what that says is what I want
is for you and me to be good I really do
want to see into your heart and I want
you to see into my heart right now I’m
not in a position to do that because I’m
just feeling feelings or I’m ragy or I’m
I’m I’m trying to put all these pieces
together of all the stuff you just said
can we just press pause because I really
want to think about these things that
you care about um and sometimes it means
like hey can we end the meeting
sometimes it means can we shift the
conversation can we go into the other
room and watch football whatever it
might be um recognizing that when I
start
becoming uh in an unhealthy way uh it’s
hospitable to just stop what we’re doing
and but also Hospitality says let’s pick
it up later and then that gives me space
to pray to process to take a nap um to
have some Federalist wine perhaps there
you go there you go I like it
so hospitality is more than just like
inviting people in or cooking a meal it
is fostering environment where my
guests feel
safe and we can feel truly so true
safety and true
belonging exists in environments where
we will disagree on all of our stuff in
our brains but what we’re connecting
each other to is not our brains but our
hearts it’s not common Affinity is it’s
our heart for one another or our heart
for the Lord depending on the person’s
faith and that’s real
Hospitality um and each of us have an
invitation to practice that like Jesus
did and it’s very difficult um for some
people they’re just not going to receive
it well and then it it may become an
issue of boundary setting where you know
what I just don’t think we’re the family
or I’m the person to host Aunt Betty
right now so I’m going to pray that
somebody
is uh and that’s okay too some of us are
called to this work directly um some of
us are called to pray for those who are
doing the the work directly and both are
really healthy postures to take that’s
great I’ve also learned inviting them to
enjoy a glass of wine with you can be
helpful too yes and for your American
Christian nationalist neighbors I could
recommend nothing higher than the
Vintage
2022 federalist from ly there we go they
see when they on this wine in this
episode I’m just glad that Ben Franklin
is on is on the wine cover and then it’s
called The Federalist with like an
American eagle on it you’re very proud
of that and I’m I’m happy with how proud
you are of that I am I I hunt I mean I
was on the hunt for patriotic wine I
love it okay so that that’s a great
transition we’re gonna we’re gonna talk
about wine for a second then we’re gonna
do our speed round Caleb okay so here’s
the wine question that I ask people okay
uh and and I have got all extremes of
this question from Nothing To Blow Me
Away stories anything in between there’s
no wrong or right answer okay what is
like if you think about the best
experience you’ve ever had with wine is
there a memory that comes to mind where
you think wow it was that glass that I
had or that bottle or it was that dinner
or is with that you know group of people
is there something you think of that was
like the the most you’ve ever enjoyed
wine do you have a moment like that and
if so what can you remember of
it yes
so uh 2020 was the worst year of my life
I was leading a congregation through the
three FS of 2020 fouchy Floyd in the
federal
election 80% of the congregation that
was there in 2016 was gone by the end of
2020 I had become I had become an enemy
to hundreds of people and had some very
very close relationships fractur so 2020
is devastating uh I mean I got covid in
June shingles in July and facial
paralysis spot on by stress in the
shingles in August wow you really went
for it yeah if you can’t win make the
Highlight re that’s what I like to say
so my board was awesome they sent me on
three-month
sabatical they were very generous and it
afforded my wife and I the opportunity
in
2021 to go to uh England and France I
like where this was going and we started
in London made our way around the sou
southern part of England took a little
ferry over got to France went to St
Malo uh and then we went to this little
town in Normandy that had a
cathedral and
and they there was this restaurant there
that was in a 600y old wine Celler that
was carved out of rock so you’d walk
down into it there’s like six tables and
it’s one of those like fancy joints that
you don’t like order off the menu
there’s just option A and B you know
what I mean like the five course meal
right and so it’s like which was great
because I don’t speak French so I’m like
that one you know the one without the
snails that’s what I wanted just the
and out of and they had carved in this
old wine Celler they had carved in a
little section that was their wine
seller that you walk back in and again
the whole room is Stone you know because
it’s carved like almost like a cave but
gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous and my wife
and I to this day talk about that meal
and that wine as when we
peaked so if we never make it back there
that was it like we Peak there and it
was the
timing it was this the the scene I mean
France had just reopened after covid
stuff in
2021 uh they had just reopened the
restaurant so we weren’t like waiting in
line there was very little foot traffic
around it was
awesome um and I still remember like
sitting there with my wife for like
hours just
crushing uh as much as we could uh there
particular wine seller selection so good
that is a great story Caleb well done
thank you thank you well done okay a few
questions close us out great what is
something that’s blowing your mind right
now like in what department any you go
anywhere you want to go with this I love
I love real time like people are like
wow so I
I super nerd time one of my favorite
bands is
Rush uh and I just finished reading the
base player and lead singer Getty Lee I
just finished reading his like 500 Page
biography
autobiography and it’s one of the few
autobiographies that I a couldn’t put
down but was also like delighting in
because you’re getting a different
you’re you’re getting inside the head of
an artist that that for me I really
really
appreciate and uh but one of the things
that blew me away was he start he’s
Jewish his mom and and dad were
Holocaust
Survivors and his story of their story
brought me to tears the resiliency of um
this young man and young woman who got
married right after
Liberation and what was mind-blowing was
how much of that he had carried into
to uh his own life and how generational
trauma really does
shape um and have powerful effect on on
us so that was mind-blowing love it
what’s a problem you’re trying to solve
right
now I need every mega church pastor in
America to buy 10,000 copies of my book
for their small groups and I don’t know
how to get their email addresses tricky
that’s tricky I have a also my uh
dishwasher is exhibiting an an error
code and I ordered the part and the
problem I’m trying to solve is I need to
fix it without paying somebody to fix it
are you gonna attempt it yourself yes I
always do are you are you handy does
this go well I know how to watch YouTube
okay and I know the difference between a
flathead and a Phil of screwdriver okay
and I was raised with a poverty mindset
okay so all those things that play are
going to compel me to try to fix this
you’re GNA figure it out I’m going to do
it and I will resent every moment of it
and then if I fix it I’ll take a picture
and put it on YouTube or on social media
to celebrate and to self congratulate
yeah yeah yeah look at me a clergyman
who works with his hands ladies and
gentlemen look at these callous Caleb
Campbell
mits what is something you’re excited
about right now
uh well I have a book coming out on July
2nd that you can pre-order your 10,000
copies on
Amazon other than that uh summer
vacation with my family okay where you
going forward to that San Diego Old
Faithful yeah love it there very cool
they have this Brewery Stone Brewery has
this place at Liberty Station it’s one
of my favorite places in the world so I
love going there as much as I can nice
is there anything you’d like to add that
I may not have asked you
about uh that’s a dangerous question I
like I usually get good answers to that
question so a question that I wish you
would have asked me or should have asked
me is anything you want to talk about
anything you want to say hey what one
more thing oh man but I didn’t I didn’t
bring it up and you were hoping to get
to
it bro this has been a great interview I
feel like anything I would add would
just be subpar
uh it would be Pearls Before Swine
frankly no it would be swine before
pearls no that’s yeah yeah it would be
swine before pearls okay so I I think
just like this fine Federalist wine uh
just chef’s kiss to the
interview that’s that’s because you’ve
been drinking this is this is yeah
actually this is my third bottle so I
got I I misunderstood the instructions
and the premise of the podcast interview
if you’re familiar with Drunk History I
thought
it’s like drunk theology so
I it’s a little you know once you start
hitting record it’s it’s too late um
that might make it to the bumper reel
I’m just saying pretty good right there
I like that uh okay Cale I do want to
support the book how can people find you
in the book online where do they need to
go yeah so uh you can go to disarming
Leviathan
docomo that you can use if you want to
understand uh American Christian
nationalism and those who embibe it
better lots of great resources and books
and articles and YouTube clips uh
podcasts we do have a podcast if you
just go to your podcast app and go to
disarming Leviathan uh surprisingly
there’s not many of the same
name and uh weird um and uh a lot of
what we talk about the podcast is
practical ways to missionally engage
American Christian nationalists in your
life um and then yeah the book is with
inner Varsity press comes out July 2nd
uh I’m on all the socials so if you just
look up disarming Leviathan you’ll find
us I
think well Caleb I sincerely appreciate
you taking the time to uh to field all
these questions while enjoying a nice
bottle of wine uh it’s been a joy to
read your book to hear your heart I have
learned a ton I think you’re dropping
some some uh great little truth nuggets
for people today and and not just
that’s immensely helpful so thank you
for your heart and for your work for the
kingdom and for helping to make us
better today yeah thanks Jeremy it was
great being on with you all right
everybody we’ll catch you next time in
the next episode of Cabernet and prey