The first show of 2024 has us speaking with a natural wine producer … Michael and André have learned that natural wine is currently in the process of being defined. Which is great news for the consumer.
That producer is Xavier Amirault – and his wines are delicious! Michael discovered Xavier on a recent trip to the Loire so he was thrilled to have the opportunity to sit down with him in Canada.
You can learn more about Xavier’s wines here – https://www.domaineamirault.com/en/home/
They are available in Ontario through Amethyst wines – https://amethystwine.ca/
You can support Two Guys Talking Wine on Patreon at www.patreon.com/2guystalkingwine
Hosted on Acast:
https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/6511c62fe7b19e00114600e0
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You’re listening to two guys talking wine with Michael pinkis and Andre PR hello Michael Andre this is quite the room it is we are we’ve taken the show on the road again uh we are in a Quality Inn by the uh by the airport yeah that’s where we
Are and um and you’re you’re drinking already I am so uh we I’m really I’m really EXC okay um I think it’s something that you and I we we both get really excited about wine travel like we really love the the Press trips that we’ve been privileged to go on and um
You know you and I have never had a chance to travel together which is it’s on the bucket list and I hope that happens sooner L than later but um you and I whenever we come back from the trip we’re always really excited to share like what we found uh I mean you
And I and who we found well you and I we talk a lot of crap about each other about wine travel but and and this is a piece of advice we’ve said it on the podcast a few times and I cannot emphasize this enough because a number
Of people I talk to that have experienced this knows that it’s true first off wine always tastes better in the presence of the wine maker does and we’re about to taste with a wine maker so this wine should taste pretty damn good y but secondly when you travel if
You buy a bottle of wine to bring home with you you need to enjoy it I think your exact words were this and I still don’t know how it works but it works you need to enjoy the wine twice as much as you think you’re enjoying it yes because
When you get home it’s not going to taste quite the same no and that’s always really held true cuz there been some trips I’ve gone on where I’ve brought back like dozens of bottles of wine with your stupid voice in my head and never been disappointed there’s
Other times I’ve only come back with three bottles of wine just because I haven’t found those wines that like really make me excited the wine maker we have in front of us is one of these people that when you came back you were just like I tasted all these Wines in
The lair and went they’re looking for Cabernet Fran so go back and listen to Cabernet Fran episode which just dropped on November 14th and um you were just you were like man I tasted these wines and he’s coming to Toronto and we’ve got to get him on the podcast correct and uh
I was I was thrilled to taste his wines uh we were in Boro we were at uh we did a tasting first and then we uh we sat down to lunch and uh I was so excited to uh to T to have his wines and and I was
So I so loved his wines that I sat next to him at lunch too so uh is this is like the third time I’ve sat next to him uh this is zavier amiru from B and uh he is here did I do it all right Andre was the French good
Enough um so zavier uh tell us a little bit about your Winery and then we’ll Dive Right into what we are tasting now which is not from your Winery okay wow uh thank you so much for invit me here I’m so glad to meet you again here my
Pleasure I appreciate well my wiy is located in sanola De which is a Tiny Town Village I will say it’s a you know thousand 1,000 people living there uh it used to be a b big area before Revolution and uh this Village is pretty young it has less than 200 year old uh
It was created just after um the the French Revolution and uh the CL curon um is a downtown The Village uh it was used to be the the the first city hall and school and my grand Grandpa from six generation took it over uh early 1800 I think it was
1833 and since then I’m the sixth generation of of wine maker um we do uh we are producing caban Frank obviously and but uh not only um we have 36 hectar which is an average size of Winery for L Val but next door Village move to onu which is O Province
3 kilm away and thanks to that uh my grand Grandma hartin uh three generation ago uh brought the white side the Shong to our Winery okay this is why we do also some on and some CR and Pon natural as well but the main varal we are producing for
80% is Cap Frank uh the the the total estate is organic certified since more than 12 years and biodynamic Demeter certified as well uh we are uh close to 20 people full-time working the vineer then the wiy and everywhere so it’s U this uh type of farming ask for lots of
Uh men and especially women power because we have more women than man you know warry and not only in the office you know at the vineyard and my my set master is is a Spanish girl an and uh so we have a great team and um you know
Well maybe we’re going to talk a little bit later on but I think oh we have a bunch of questions we kinds of questions but first we’re going to weit we hit you with a curveball to start off yes so we what we did was um I talked to Andre uh
This morning and I said I’m bringing a current uh bottle of uh Cabernet Fran and I said I was planning on bringing a bottle of Cabernet Fran too and uh it turns out Andre the man who does not like older wine has brought an older Cabernet Franc along with him so we’ll
We’ll start with the Ontario older version of Cabernet Franc it’s a 2011 we wanted to get Europe opinion on this version of Cabernet Fran and then we’ll dive right into the glass with your wines as well but this is a 12-year-old Cabernet FR from a lackluster Vintage
2011 yeah 2011 was uh cool and rainy so it was a challenge to get things super right but it’s clear that the people who made this wine um well let’s let’s find what uh what Z what do you think of this Z what do you think of this version of
Cabernet fron well this version of caban FR I can recognize easily the cap Fran uh uh um characteristic uh for us 2011 was a beautiful vintage was hot and you know good vintage very nice weather and maybe a little bit boder but here um 12 years old cap Frank I think everything
Is here and I taste nice and obviously it get some you know hedge on the nose and testing and most people maybe not Habit to that I’m Habit to that I love old cap front because it could Edge very nicely and we can feel a beautiful acidity which make it possible to carry
On for many years I’m not sure if it’s going can go much farer harder but uh for me I’m used to drink those cap FR and I love to drink them uh that way because uh we get it’s not it’s not easy to explain in
English but uh um you know the c um the you put them on honey honey on honey yeah the type of Sweetness in the nose it’s honey and you put on the wood and on the on the furniture my grandma used to do that and when you get into oh like
A resin yeah yeah yeah type of resin right and when you get into uh your grandma Place smell your grandma you know type of cooking obviously but when she she clean up the the place they smell the anco stick we call it anco stick in French it’s a based to Pon my
God and and it smell that type of Sweetness in the nose and I love that a lot man I I think you missed your calling as a wine writer that was like a really lovely tasting note and I think it’s something Michael and I like it’s it’s always hard you know when certain
Wines just taste the way they’re supposed to like when you taste them or low if you don’t write cherry your tasting note either the wine maker screwed up on making it or you screwed up as a writer Mero smells and tastes like cherries but when you can get that
Like really visceral response and you’ve had a visceral response to that I always really appreciate that and love that so thank you for for sharing that yeah let’s dive in okay so the wine was a 2011 bench trial testimony made by Adam ker and Chris fornasier short-lived uh
Project I always thought these wines were um better than I think they got credit for cuz not a l a lot of people knew about them and um you were worried that this was going to be over the hill I think you actually told me why am I
Bringing a crappy bottle of Cabernet fron 201 I was like that’s not the greatest of vintages to uh to show off uh I think there’s a little bit of a vegetative note on that one but it’s not bad I didn’t find anything vegetable did you find anything
Vegetable no not me that I think you’ve just got it in your head about these wines I’m I’m sticking by my thing okay Michel all right so let’s get let’s get to zavia let’s get to your wines here um first question I have to ask you is um
How long has your winery been making Pon natural well we do p natural now since I would say 10 years okay because we’re you know the main things for us is cron obviously but 10 years ago we start to do p on natural and that’s fun it’s very
Different than the classic sparkling one you can get in a in L Val the this one we are testing now is is 100% cap Frank Ros P natural uh do you want to explain the the process difference between Pon natural and CR uh I think most of the
People listening to this would know like Pon natural is is um primary ferment is Pon natural would that be the same as ancestral like what it’s exactly that yeah so you know the the main thing is uh we cannot uh you know we’re not controlling it you you you have to trust
Your fruits you have to trust your must and when you la the fermentation with a indigenous yeast this one is a natural wine has nothing had in no uh no sulfite nothing and but you never know what you’re going to have and sometime it go
To dry as this one but sometime you can have some sugar left because the yeast decide to stop at one point and you have to appreciate like that so from a vintage to another vintage sometime you get some rid go sometime not so I didn’t notice a vintage date on this uh zavier
Is there uh is there one or you just know what vintage It is Well we don’t put the Vintage we could because it’s 100% the same vintage uh this one is a 2021 I think uh what we do usually is we try to keep it on on Lees okay on the
Bottles as long as we like but not too long to compare to a Classic champagne method or traditional method where we try to refine uh the the pon natural usually you want to bite the fruit you’re not totally in a wine world you you you bite the fruits and and and if
You wait too much uh too long you’re going to miss the freshness of the right fruits with love and uh so this is uh I would say you know maybe 12 uh 12 months on fin leaves and then this one was was disgorge sometimes it’s not but I like
To disgorge it because I don’t like to B my last glass and especially in the restaurants uh you know uh you know sry can can you can you repeat that last line just one more time for the wine makers in Niagara who are making petn Nats still you like to discour your wine
Why do you like to discourage the wine well discard just to uh get get out from the the the the deposit from the the fermentation yes I was I was going to ask about that because I was not noticing any weird siment in in the wine
And that is always one of my my big problems I have two big problems with with petnet and i’ I’ve discussed them with Andre a few times you said it on this podcast before and and it’s the one thing I’m in agreement with you on is
You you pay for a full bottle but you only get to drink two3 of it two thirds of it cuz it’s either got Sledge in the bottom or it’s h your ceiling or it’s you know it’s painting the ceiling because it’s got all kind you know it it
Explodes and you know get it all over the deck you get it over the ceiling and and if you get a 2third of a bottle or half a bottle and they’re usually fairly expensive especially on this side of the um so uh one I was happy that we didn’t
Paint the ceiling uh here and two I was looking at it going how is this pet net and you you you disgorge it so do you do you put a dosage in as well or no no that would be not at all when you disar
It obviously you lose a little bit of uh wine obviously and we refill it with another bottle just and put the C the co back not the C uh the cap okay we keep the cap and uh no sulfite nothing at all and and then after a couple of months
After ready to go to the thread to restaurant to private customer ready to drink like that fresh and clean well I’m glad it was yeah this is this is fresh and clean uh this is fresh and clean and um like just a nice torrent of like
Beautiful red fruit um I know I kind of crapped on like the whole concept of cherry but like really like Cherry raspberry uh like maybe just a whisper of the Savory note that you get from kind of rhub barbish kind of note to I agree with you yeah I’m with you on
That too and I don’t know if you notize but absolutely no do and it is totally dry but when you test it is doesn’t make you your palette totally dry Oh I thought for sure there was a bit of sugar in that is not not wow I didn’t
Get that there’s a little bitterness to the Finish that’s where the rhubarb comes in I thought what the the the bitterness is a characteristic of the cap FR okay you get that on the Reds but it’s a beautiful bitterness you know it’s a character cap Fran has a strong
Character you know what I I didn’t find bitterness but I think it’s because I was drinking orange wine in Prince Edward County this weekend and by comparison there was no bitter notes to uh bitter notes to your pet now that’s a I I I would drink the drink the crop out
Of that that’s a really lovely wine that is a that is a very interesting pet net and and something that as as we’re not used to seeing which is clear pet net so I I can’t stress that enough you got the next wine in front of us it’s a uh
Shannon blond it’s you know it’s really fun watching you try to read wine labels with your reading classes oh I’m telling you my my eyes are getting worse all the time and uh yeah this is a big wine like like the texture is insane like it’s nice and like waxy
And like it’s just kind of coats the middle of your palette and just fills your mouth with like the white flour and honey and it’s layered over top of like really sweet Citrus like do you have I can’t remember you have creamsicles in France excuse me can you
Creamsicle creamsicle it’s a it’s a it’s a popsicle like a like a frozen orange juice yeah with like ice cream in the middle ju vanil so yeah no ice cream yeah he’s looking at you like your this is like this is like a liquid creamsicle
Okay okay it’s it’s a good thing it’s a good thing okay oh my God good thank you I’m all worried yeah W uh it’s a 22 uh 20 2022 vintage which uh was a global warming type of vintage so we get a little bit B
Than usual but the good thing is we have also the acidity Hub and enough facility to keep it balanced and Fresh So allog together uh uh you know OB has a good body is we can recognize the Shen it’s 100% Shen that fresh white flour Aroma
And when you take a your palette it’s you don’t have on this vintage the the green apple as we have usually it go straight to more pear and Peach you know more mature fruits well ripe fruits and uh it’s really enjoyable again this uh this swine has no sugar residual at all
But because is a uh we we hedge it on the Fang Le he gets some body some fat from the F Le agging on in a concrete vat and this one is a organic biodynamic and also uh Von nature that mean the new this new certification can explain to
The customer is made with Organic wine certified and unpicked uh Crush uh with a certain pressure on it and we don’t add in it in no sulfite at all in the process no filtration also that mean that mean no filtration in a wine to keep the wine very bright and
Clear that mean it’s important to be patient to Rack it every you know every months to just clean uh to to have a clear wine so that’s is how is this med this wine it’s very um so so okay one thing that you just said I just want to clarify is
There actually a designation for vend and is it set by the the the the AOC and there are rules you have to follow or like how are you organized because that’s always been an issue that I have is we have natural wine bars in Toronto yeah and you know it’s it’s basically at
The discretion of the SEMO it’s at the discretion of the agent where they say oh this is a natural wine like I don’t think there’s a set rules for it and you’re telling me are there set rules and who made the rules well now now it’s done since the Vintage of
2019 uh uh 15 Winery 15 50 wine makers I will be part of the first the first uh part uh uh uh Spanish Italian and French uh decide to write a shart uh about what is natural wine and they got approv from the governmental from each one and
Brussel which is a European approved it we got obviously the AOC system approved it the process and also I don’t know how to call that the type of um um call it um um you know the the to make sure the the health the people the customer know
We you you cannot cheat the customer the special uh organ um administ ation we have on each country uh fraud you know if you advertise for something it’s wrong you can get you know for that and and and the good thing about that so today the only uh uh certification of
Natural wine is viton natur this one recognized in all Europe and now is recognized in Canada in the US as well the Food and Drug Administration recognize this uh um this uh certification I’m pretty sure that Ontario wine makers can use that if if he he respect the chart he can use that
Certification and that came up in 2019 because as you said uh most of most of the we got good and bad experience yeah uh people said oh that’s my natural wine but the natural wine definition for some were different from other and sometime people forgot to say about not very good
Things about natural one how is made this shter is clear you can you go online okay he said the wine has to be at minimum organic biodynamic is better but a minimum organic he has to be handpicked okay nothing no chemical no chemical hading so andal yeast no sulfite no filtration no
Physical action on it uh um that’s it so you you know the wine makers have beautiful grapes healthy grapes and is here to bring to the wine without nothing else no physical no chemical it’s you know the dream can we do that every year I don’t know so far since
2019 we did it up to 2023 four years on a row we did it but maybe next year it’s going to be a complicate vintage maybe as a 201 in but I here here’s my favorite thing about what you’re saying though as a wine maker is like maybe not
Every year depending on the on the Vintage I think that’s the most important thing about wine making I think the goal for most great wine makers is to do as little as possible to get a highquality product to the bottle but at the same time you have to think
About your customers and if you have a year where it rains non-stop from July until September you need to think about the 20 people who are working for you whether your crop yields are going to make it and whether you’re going to have
A good product to put the b in in a case like that what would you do would you just let it go or drop it good question no believe me the rules of V is very strict if one vintage we cannot make it that label F de Fon on 2022 we cannot
Make it for stance in 2024 we cannot use this label for 5 years wow wow and why that because the the fraud the the the administration said we don’t want get Abit to the customer said oh I know this wine this label it’s a it’s a natural wine and one vintage after doesn’t
Have and and they don’t they cannot get it because it’s no certification so that mean we cannot use this label for five years to make sure the customer don’t get uh uh uh wrong you know get the right one so it’s so strict this is but
But it’s just a designation of V it’s like if you had to make a decision to spray with some antifungals to deal with you know a crappy rainfall we might not see font disappear from your lineup it just won’t say vend on the bottle right no the lab will disappear the label will
Disappear disappear for inst but you can use the grapes you can use the grapes elsewhere correct you can you can you you can’t make this F de Fontan label but you can make something else with those yeah sure I I will make yeah no obviously I’m not going to Dr to dump my
No no no no no worry but we say I will make a caban Frank San B for instance we label say it’s organic but but is not very certified and like that the customer uh you know don’t get um I don’t know um don’t get confused I guess
Exactly don’t get confused so this is tasty so let’s let’s move on so we we we did the shin in Blanc and now it’s time to to get into some Cabernet Fran which I think is the is the Crux of I think of this uh of this podcast or we are hoping
It was going to be no this is the Crux of the podcast so uh 22 minutes in what what makes uh the lir valley the place for Cabernet Fran uh I don’t know you know Perfect all right well you close this podcast down Andre we’re done
I love it though it just no no well essentially we you know essentially uh cap Fran is around since ever uh there are different story explaining how cap Fran get into the L Valley uh uh we some some says he come from Southwest of France before to come from you know uh
Uh from Mediterranean area I think it’s a you know we have cap Frank seems to be at least 1,000 year ago and uh cap Frank is here because I guess far before the AOC the aop the appellation system uh the people already notize that Cabernet Fran were performing very well better
Than the caben Merlo uh uh well weather is changing now obviously but cap Frank is performing very well so you know and the appellation system locked it saying if you do a red L appellation you have to use cap Frank no other varials so that’s it it’s the rules and we love it
Like that so we have to and and it’s not complicated we have to work with it and and and the cap frun I think is getting better and better or red low wine why well because we’re getting more techniques and more experience and more and the customer is ready to pay a
Little bit more to give us us wine makers more time to uh uh write the right fruits and and to make a a long uh pretty long aging on the wine to be ready to drink so today cap Frank and since 20 years now is very very popular
In France and especially Paris and my little town sanad B with 1,000 people we are um we are I think 65 million people in France anywhere I go in France inside of France in the French River in Marse or anywhere I said oh oh you’re from
Sanicola the wine I’m just one of the 1,000 people it’s totally well known if you go in Paris for sure in a restaurant you’re going to have cap Frank four or five cap Frank to chose and for sure at least one sanad B which is at the export
In North America not the case not yet but it’s growing it’s coming we’re still waiting for Cabernet Fran to have its Day in Ontario well I I like I mean the thing that and and I’m I’m just going to gloss over this quickly because we we
Did a a a an unwrap or a tear down of my of my trip yeah and and and the two places that I found that that really got Cabernet Franc right as far as I was concerned was suir and all its little little plus and other little sh and and
And B and S the um those were my two favorite places to go the the the the Cabernet Fran was ripe it was it was what I expected Cabernet Fran to be based on what we can do here in Ontario as well um whereas Chon uh I found was
They still were in that green pepper bell pepper salad phase you I don’t I I hope you know what I’m I’m talking about here yours were right they were they were fresh there was fruit whereas shol which they they bring the most Cabernet Fran in they they’re the most exported
Cab frog but it was like drinking salad yeah wow you don’t like salad Michael I like salad I just don’t want to drink yeah well uh Shino has you know I cannot uh I have good friend in Shino so talk bad about I get it I get no no I have my
Yeah I have good friends over there they great Sho producer but uh let’s talk about cap Fran and how it’s changed during the this 20 30 years past obviously cap Frank you cannot be a lazy Wind Maker when you produce cap Fran that’s for sure you have to take some
Risk cap Fran has a very short windows where you can handpick it it’s 3 days before is going to be green as you said you know asparagus or green bean you know type of thing we don’t like much but you know and if you go a little bit
Too late it’s going to be hand balance Jammy not interesting cap FR it loses its frankness yeah exactly so the pine that molecule are talking about making the testing that green things when you take when you grab it on the right time when it’s well wrapped these green things become spice
Become licorish become eucalyptus mint uh you get some tobacco English tobacco sweet tobacco all those type of think are much better and happening for the palet and for the worldwide people so that’s change for two things uh first of all because uh export Market getting very important because customer wants ready
To put a little bit more money and less drink less but better wine and give us all the wine maker moments to do right things and the second thing is because we have a climate change and I don’t want to say the good things but so far
Uh it’s changing but it’s it’s good for cap Fran so I don’t want to say the good things but again uh cap Fran when you’re testing cap Frank those 10 past years and the best wine makers wow that you get you get very elegancy uh uh very delicate very rine
Spice and and and and red wines very nice food pairing you can you know the cap front could be also uh a good match with uh as as well as fish uh when is a l style to a bigger uh with meat and and salad or so cap Fran has really uh lots
Of toer and it’s not finished it’s just the beginning and I’m so happy that aaran wine makers are producing cap Frank and great cap Frank uh because I think uh a cap Frank is a would be the next gripe uh you don’t believe it
Zavier if I if I’ve if I had a dime for every time I heard that something is the next grape I’d be very wealthy I think there’s two people who think that Cabernet Fran are going to be the next grape on the planet right okay three people we have zavier we have Laura
Laura Higgins of amethyst wine agency who reps zavier yeah and We Have Allison SLO ke front Chronicles yeah wait do you know Allison oh sure I know a great you know I I don’t it’s it’s it’s like uh you hear every every year well this is the year reasing is
Going to come out or this is the year tempero has its day in the Sun or ganach is going to be the star and they just it just never happens as much as I want Cabernet Fran to have its day um you know whose day it is though and always
Will be is chard no no it shouldn’t but that’s another story what I what I do believe is I do believe that between the two and and really Ontario and cuz we have put it into an Ontario context of some sort because we are here we are
Too we are by far not a major region here in Ontario we make less than 1% of the world’s wine we are not on that stage but we do focus on Cabernet Fran as our main stay red you from the lir valley it you know you guys make a lot
Of wine and it is your main stay red so we are following in the footsteps of some really great wine makers and a really great region uh so I think I think and I think we’re on the right track and and I do have a bottle from
2020 for you to taste to get your opinion so okay we’ll get that in a in a bit Laura you were sorry Laura is here pouring the win for us you pulled the last bottle I want to take a look at the label because um as you said on the
Podcast I work in branding and marketing I spend a I spend more time thinking about wine labels than any journalist in this country if you’re a journalist who thinks that you spend more time talking about wine labels by all means send me an email but you’re wrong um I wanted to
Talk a bit about your your logo on the top of the bottles here the amig where you have a a rooster and a hen yeah walking and then um the uh la font you somehow get got a a painting of Michael done yeah so you have a that’s me you
You have a donkey with um the planets going around its head and the the moon on his Donald Trump thing but yeah I got it well actually there there is almost something like it’s very it’s very French it’s got a bit of a like um Antoine St exup to this but right let’s
Let’s let’s go to the top let’s talk about your your logo your logo with the chicken and the the the rooster what what like what’s going on with your logo yeah what we have a you know we T the classic part of the classic line with Theon grais which is the label exist
Since 200 years but I were talking about this Farm uh that we got in Street generation and in 2019 19 when the uh viton nature start we said let’s make this place revive Revival and uh and not only wine so we producing red and white but also we have a fruit and vegetables
And we have you know animals we have donkeys but we have lots of gese walking at the vineyard we have hen and we decide to put the label a little bit uh um you know changing funnier and uh it’s fun it’s really fun it’s it’s this place
Is only not only a winery it’s part of the Clon family and wine but we won’t make this place very special and talk about the farming in general and not only wine but about animals on the farm uh you know what we are growing fruit and vegetables and it’s a place where
You can stay overnight and and we didn’t get time to to to see it Michael last time time but this place is a new generation I think of we won’t get out a little bit of too much wine and get said the wine and the wine is in middle of
You know a a Countryside with oo production and othero farming and la font um it’s a place of freedom I would say so yeah just again I hate to keep doing this but you bring it back to to the Ontario context um when you go to to
A place like and and it’s exactly what zavier is saying when you go to a place like Featherstone you walk around the back and they have chickens uh and they have the sheep and they have uh various other things and I remember asking uh Louise who’s a wine maker here in
Ontario well she’s she’s more the face I guess yeah but she’s involved in the vi culture she uses Hawks to keep the pests away from the vineyard it’s really amazing so it’s really but you know I asked her once I said what’s all the sheep and the the Ducks and the the
Chickens and she goes I want to remind people that we are a farm yes everybody gets you know wrapped up into the beauty of the vineyard and the wine and blah blah blah but at the end of the day we are you know susceptible to Mother Nature everything that she does and we
Are a farm and when people see chickens roosters sheep they think farming before they think of all that you know beautiful exactly it’s it’s the base of the bodam uh I don’t know if you you know if you start to studing a little bit of bodnam but right away you’re talking about farm
And balance and we believe if you want a very well balanced wine without any you know using chemical or physical you need to have a Balan environmental place so tell us about this next wine that we we have here which is called uh let me just
Gra Graves is a well it’s you’re talking about the dirt well yeah well it’s I brought some rocks here you’re a real rock star like you actually brought the vineyard with you I have to bring them back because my one is not going to tell
The same if I don’t bring them but this this is the soil right here he’s going to make it yeah yeah you what I like to experience to people is uh we do cap Frank on one Village only cap Frank on different type of soil and i’ like when
The people test the wine and test the place test the soil this one is coming from a vein of deep gravels when I say deep is a you know 10 f is going to be 60 ft deep of small grael like that draining because you know the vines
Doesn’t like too much water on the roots and also very hot soil that is uh uh certainly the plot where we harvest the first uh the uh and and when you test the wine from graves we have another one called Lei which is the same type of so
It Mak the wine very warm as a bow very silky almost sweet but not the sweetness from the sugar the sweetness from the touch of your palette you know is what this is what you can expect from this type of Tero Soul Graves and obviously
To get that uh we we we have a classic fermentation uh mation of two or 3 weeks and then after we hedge it in a food ra for minimum 16 months so there’s like no wood influence no wood no because the food rise are you know uh 45 L which is
A big size uh they have you know seven years old so it doesn’t give any Oak test but the the transfer the oxygen transfer during 16 months at least I bring uh to the wine uh the oxygen he needs uh to round up to be to be very
Round and and and silky and and you know if it’s it’s another type of cap Frank when you test cap Frank in LA in sanola first you don’t teste the varol you test the soil if you’re very respectful of your farming if you’re very respectful of your uh vinification you’re not going
As a hurry crushing push most the most you go very soft and then after you don’t use any chemical no no physical and then you you you you choose the right vessel to Edge your wine you’re going to test at the end the place we’re not going to make an onaran
Caban Frank because we were talking about that and I think Ontario are they have to find them way they’re going to make a wine from Ontario the cap from from onario because they have to test the place there are great way I test some great cab FR from Ontario and I
Think you know just the beginning but the climate is not the same uh you have here a continental climate uh we have more um you know uh Atlantic Ocean affence uh no way it’s not going to be the same cap FR we don’t I would say to
My friend wine makers in Ontario don’t try to make a l c from FR or burgundy blah blah blah make your try to make the best of the place that when you get in it’s it’s wonderful and to do that it would take some generation it’s empiric it will because I was thinking
When he was talking about how old San is as far as a a village being 200 years old like we’re not even 200 years old as a country I I love the call to action though like the the thing where it’s just like stop trying to
Make wi or don’t try to make wines that taste like somewhere else make them taste like where they come from which I think is it’s a challenge I think it’s just like a problem that we have in Ontario is that people in Ontario have a bad perception of it so we’re trying to
Ride on the coat Tales of somewhere else so it’s it’s a tough ask that you have but I think the other thing that you’re saying is it takes patience it’s taken like France has been around for a long time and wi been part of the culture for
A long time and you know not everyone okay fine maybe we’re not going to be New Zealand or or oron it might take some time for us to figure out what we’re doing but you know I I do believe that we were we were trying to uh be the
Lir valley for for quite a bit of time especially in the uh the ’90s and maybe into the early 2000s when we were trying we were looking for that pyrine note in those um in those Cabernet Fran and we we learned over time to get harness it
Harness it let them ripen a little longer let them hang a little longer wait for that three day window that y was was was talking about so so okay so you and I need to talk to each other for a quick minute here while we’re focused here like graviss uh you talked about
The the silky and almost like sweet fruit texture yeah I definitely got that the wine was beautifully ripe the where the pyrine notes on a lot of Ontario Cabernet fron tends to stick out like a sore thumb and hit the middle of the pallette on the way out it’s almost
Like the Savory notes of your Cabernet Fran it’s like envelop in in red fruit so like it’s there but it’s under it it was really easy drinking um did you look at the alcohol on the bottle did you care of the which the release uh I’m going to go 14 12 and
A half wow okay that’s why I thought you were being very excited about it but no I love it when the alcohol is low on wines because you can drink more of them and I smoke briskets in the summer I love Cabernet Fran with with a beautiful
Piece of I’m happy to see I thought we were you were going to go my God you should see what it was 14 because it was hidden very well so I’m glad to see there was there was must you know alcol is is a big issue in the world today in
A wine most of my colleagues especially in south of France in the southern hemisphere want stay away from you know 14 15 16 sometime and in Lal we still okay uh obviously here my some of my colleague get some higher alcohol content but when you keep you’re round
Natural grass in your Vineyard you and and you have a very high canop your alcohol doesn’t go high my next for instance if I have a colleague Growers next to me with a short canopy and a more heavy uh uh production on this Vineyard you will get for sure one
Degree more but by the wine making process to not looking for to load your vines with lots of fruits and to have a high canopy and fully grass under your Vines your alcohol is just perfectly balanced and you know it’s uh it’s what we looking for the people looking for
More and more freshness and as you said you know you can drink more and and it’s not warm up your palette it just uh uh carry on the acidity is the most important I think uh element in the wine to carry on after test a long after test
To help to the food pairing and to help hedging wine non alcohol especially not for us we believe we are fully 7 degree North hey onio that’s 5 degrees north of uh of Lake yie Northshore North 42 yeah we are higher to the pole closer to the
Pole than you yeah yeah what what’s Toronto is not 47 it’s no it’s like 43 43 exactly and and so so it’s it’s uh so we’re not afraid about alcohol it’s not a it’s not a no your a your acidities are great and and this this yeah let’s
Keep this moving now we have another wine this is we were not supposed to get this wine but oh so that’s why you had made me sneakily refill your glass correct La is not in the room so correct so we were not supposed to get this wine
But at some point she made a motion that cuz she had the the bottle in her hand hand and she went you know this is the entry level this is the and then this is this is this is the top and I’m like you know open this damn thing let’s try this
One before we get this like gra if I come and visit you at your estate how much do you sell that for and uh for the public price yeah the public price if I come as a tourist to visit you oh it’s going to be um I’m not sure you never
Ask the wine maker how much a bottle is they never know I would say somewhere around the 16 or 17 EUR Euro Euro Euro there’s somebody at the winery going zavier no it’s not even close to that so you know just so V is V that’s V is no no no no
Not this Cas V is v v e a this case is v v v means it’s old French talking it means a small Valley small Valley you know uh well you know the L Valley obviously go east to west and you have some smaller Valley going no up north to
South to North but by chance this Valley is close up north is not totally uh open and and and the cold wind from the north cannot get in so it’s we get there a unique climate a micro climate and is on the hill is where we have the cave uh
You know that’s the picture Michael you know this we’re seeing a photo of uh we’re seeing a photo of uh the cave where the wines are made yeah and and and uh to compare to the the the previous one which is on the Terrace it’s 500 M away
Up uh to the to the hill and here no more gravels but we are talking about limestone pure Limestone just above the the cave and uh uh on top of the hill just below the forest we get uh green clay and celx and those two type of soil
Is maybe 100 yard away apart but the one the the handp time is not the same is you have somewhere around seven days so we cannot wait from each other each other to to to unpick them and to make the vinification of the clay and the Limestone so what we do
We make the Arvest of the Limestone first we make infusion and then one week later we go back in this vonu area up top to the hill to get the Harvest of the green clay fruits and we make infusion and during uh you know most of
The time four or five weeks infusion we push down by hand to extract it uh then after four or five weeks we freerun the clay and the Limestone wine with no no pump we let them get homogeneous during 3 weeks and then we fill up on floras which are
Right under the vineyard in the cave and we hedged it for another minimum 30 months to 60 to 36 months in this s for us so you Tes take another cap FR from the same Village sunad but from another place on top of the hill it’s obviously another vintage we
Didn’t test yet today it’s 2017 which is um I will say uh 2017 is a very classic L style in 2017 for us we didn’t get a very hot summer and heavy and it very is a very L style very delicate very very rine you can see after four years this
One is still so young fres it’s it’s an absolute U Andre I don’t know about you but I think this this wine to me uh is is the is the best of the of the bunch that we have tried obviously it is the top tier of the wines um but it really
Shows a real purity of of fruit yeah it’s um and you know what I find fascinating as well is um I I know we haven’t really been we don’t really talk about natural wine a lot on the podcast but I think we’ve identified often that there is a problem with I think newer
World natural wine where that’s why I asked you to Double Down Xavier about uh what you would do in a tough vintage I think those are important questions but you have a lot of people who are doing dogmatic wine making where they’re following the rules because the rules
Say the rules and they don’t care as much about what the wines tastes like it’s very clear you care a lot about what your wines taste like U the cabet fr the vogan new that we just tasted is with without a doubt one of the best Cabernet francs I’ve ever had and I
Really appreciate you sharing that with us thank you it it is a lovely wine and and it’s one of the wines that uh we had tasted while we were we were in the L Valley and it’s it’s one of those ones that made me go yeah if I’m not mistaken
You have you we did taste that wine and um in my corner of the table we we finished off a couple bottles well okay I okay I have a question about um M foras uh how long have you been using M foras at the wi
Well now we have an experience of um 8 years close to 10 years uh 10 years now at first you know 10 years ago we were talking about aoriz we said you know is that something new it’s a marketing blah blah blah we’re going to put that on the
Label it’s not us but I I I bought a couple of uh um on foras and make the try and now after eight vintage and now we have I think 30 we got um 15 more since we so we have around 30 35 for us now I can
Say that’s the perfect content to Edge a wine it’s not a new content it was the first content you know it exist since 8,000 years but the thing is you know when you make when you’re wine maker you won’t make the best wine on that place
Do you want make your heart in it uh you don’t want to add in any Oak any uh Exogen I don’t know what type of you you Exogen you add test you know o test if you can make as pure as pure as possible only fruits only acidity only bitterness
Like bitterness only things and it makes perfect that’s great and is what I want to accomplish today if uh I don’t want to say I’m going to stay away from any kind of Oak barels and everything because obviously it’s a great V contant to HED a wine but when you do natural
Wine you don’t use any chemical no twist to make your wine why shouldn’t put that in a clear content with not giving any test specific test add in uh so it’s it’s pretty complicated we’re still learning about it because you have different um dirt terracota we have the the the low cook
One less than 1,000° cus cook which is a clay pot with lots of uh oxygen transfer and and you have another one called more going to ceramic with less transfer oxygen cook the the the the the the the Arora are cook over 1,000° C with very low transfer so
Obviously from what you’re are testing at first you choose the right content sometime you said oh this wine I can see it in this type of content and sometime uh you choose you so if you come to see my cave you will see all type of aora uh
All type of size and form because the form is so important uh just a quick things maybe it’s techniques but I think it’s important if your offer is totally round as a ball you know the waiter pressure is going to make pressure on your liquid in a wine and is going to
Make your wine in movement and you’re going to have a natural battonage okay is WR if you take an aora almost as a tube yeah the the the the the flow is going to be much slower and and and you’re going to get less least contact less movement less
Well and a gental extraction of everything when you use am for you put the the full fruit in it as well no just the Ju Just the juice just the juice because my cave is 13° cus is too cold to make the alcoholic fermentation in it but it’s good enough to make malolactic
Fermentation into aging cool so uh I want say that each aeras has a very specific and unique uh uh uh way to uh uh rine your the agging of the wine and again it’s natural and and you cannot from Anora to another one you have to
Learn from that is empiric you have to learn from a vintage to another vintage every year we do 45 single CU of cabet FR sanola at first plot By plot and after 18 months we’re going to finish with only eight that mean every weeks we’re testing the wine with my brother
In my team Bland eyes and we say oh we got it this week we got it the number number three and number four know number eight let’s put them together in this type of content and let and every year the etiny is different we you see what I
Mean you you do by feeling you do by people around the table testing with you and each content is so different aora are not standing still if you take two V of standing still 10or your wine is going to taste pretty the much if you take two aoras from the
Same uh aora producer 10 hecto they are not going to teste the same so you have to know each of each of them so that’s the part of the the great part of the wine maker uh is testing the wine and decide the Aging way of the wine if
Someone had told me in January of 2023 that some of my favorite wines of this year were going to be from a natural wine maker that Michael pinkis was going to introduce me to I would have lost a bet because actually something Michael and I have said on the
Podcast many times this one of the problems with the natural wine Movement Like I said is dogmatic wine making is that there’s a lot of snake oil salesmen who are happy to sell faulted wines and say it’s part of the process where um I think you might be my new
Favorite wine maker from the lir because the other wine maker I fell in love with were Katherine and Pier Breton and I did not know that they were natural wine makers because the wines were good I have N I keep that in my house at all
Times I have Magnums of it in my house because I like to have it on hand because it’s a delicious wine what you’ve presented to us today are delicious wines I think it’s amazing that you’re trying to do natural wine making but it’s a it’s a byproduct
You’re like it’s great that you’re doing that but the wines are delicious and that’s the most important thing so we’re um we’re going to wrap this thing up obviously uh What uh what we’ve done now is poured um uh zavier a wine from vinand it is their I let’s
Call it their base model we’ve just gone from a top tier L wine to the entry level from vinand it’s holding up really I think it’s holding up but I want to hear what zavier has to say what do you think and uh the other thing I I I do
Want to say while zavier is tasting this wine is that it’s not every day Andre that in in 2023 you get invited back to a man’s cave I’m just saying it just doesn’t happen very often so uh zavier has invited us very nicely back to his cave
He’s not pulling us by the hair so I’m very happy about that I’ll be there I’ll be there so zavier this is uh from the 2020 vintage which is one of the better vintages that Ontario has seen um obviously under screw cap which I don’t know how much lir Valley goes under
Screw cap these days um oh you are you are you’re like you’re not just like shaking your head like you don’t like screw caps it’s not I’m not like screw c cap but why using screw c cap when you have a good cork I understand early 2000
When uh when the cork industry was Hing too much to the to the C uh CK uh uh but in in the the CK was so bad and and New Zealand and give the way to all the wine industry to go to screw cup but today I
Think the the the the oak the the cork industry is very careful about the forest of Oak and we got a great cork so when every day you working in your vineard making as uh clean as possible as healthy your Vineyard and your soil and you make your wine making as not
Using anything thing you want keep natural up to the hand and C today it cost most maybe more money a good C but you know you don’t care you want your wine taste good five 10 years 15 years on the road I I am going to I’m going to
Defend Brian Schmidt a little bit here he did not I I know he he came to screw cap kind of kicking and screaming a little bit I know he wasn’t that thrilled about doing it but he realized that that that this wine um I like I
Like the I like the opinions on it so um it’s a battle I have even with my little wine company like I like I like screw caps for the cost and the consistency that I know every bottle of When Pigs Fly Rosé I sell because it’s a wine I
Want drunk young sure will be of a consistent quality I know Adam Adam has started his own kernin company that’s the wine maker who made the wonderful testimony that we tasted he spends a lot of money on good corks for his project there and I don’t know if the adx wine
Company’s ever going to spend a lot of money on quirks cuz we we’re trying to keep our costs down it’s expensive to buy good quirks so now so I do I do want to find out what zavier thinks cork screw cap don’t don’t look over here
Look back into the glass the what did you think about this um Cabernet front well uh 2020 you said it’s a good vage it’s a dry but enough balance hor for human beings good for but we we we had cool nights which we don’t usually have in hot summer so
Should be some assd I’m not I not want to talk them in or out of this I want to hear what seems to be the same than we got in 2020 in L in French in general it’s a great it’s a good vintage is in L
Val and I’m not sure here but I didn’t test many vintages from this same CUV but I would say it’s a little bit this type of vintage a little bit demonstrating because you get a little bit more Sun yes and um Asal as we say
More than what you got from the from the soil from the earth you know so I love this one is very well made is fresh screw cup is fine with me don’t don’t don’t get me wrong if you if you’re going to test it in the next uh two or
Three years that’s perfect obviously I don’t think screw C would be great if this wine is made to be a drink in five years but uh this cap Frank you can when I smell it I got the cap Frank nothing wrong is not the C from from L I’m sure
You don’t mess up but it’s different keep going making your own cap Frank here with your own you know identity is what we love is what the customer wants you want to be proud of your cap don’t try to make it as we do because we don’t
Have the same play I met again but this one is excellent and I would be very interesting to hide the bottle of 2020 this cap Frank in the middle of a testing of low cap Frank 2020 and say what’s going to say my colleagues wine makers and and I would be surprised you
That’s that’s a that’s a pretty high compl high compliment Bri you like it yeah you know I already enjoy it the only thing is again 2020 is a little bit demonstrative and crushed by Sun corre and hide a little bit the soul expression that’s but to the sales point
And Commercial Point is perfect all right so so zavier uh last question before we wrap which Ontario Cabernet fran did you like better I know the first one or the second one ah oh yeah the 2011 or this wow it’s a it’s oh don’t tell me you’re going to be
A politician here no well you know I know where he’s going I you know s but you know my my my point of view is he has his hand on the testimony by the way it’s is a 2021 the the 2011 is is a you
Know it’s it’s my grma spting you I say it’s it’s cuz he likes he likes them a little bit green and he likes them a little bit Rey and he likes them a little weedy that’s what he likes he doesn’t like that that fruit I could
Feel where he was going I like it too but you know each each one at this time of the day tonight is like that let’s talk tomorrow could it could be completely different do you know what uh zavier I just I’ll just tell you so uh you know
It’s it’s it’s it’s weird we we we poured this one after your highend this is this is this is Brian’s entry level $15 Cabernet Franc so it’s it’s um it it you know standing next to your your highend it was kind of not a fair comparison to Brian but I think it did
Hold up and it was it was but it was really good so $16 sorry it’s $15.95 now I think so oh and the uh the other one was how long how much $60 so €60 or $60 into Canada so that uh Le I thank you very very much for the um
The inspiration I think what you’re saying to Ontario telling us to do our own thing is something that we really need to hear from people outside our borders because it is a problem here that ontarians don’t drink Ontario Wine but we’ve had you say very nice things
About two Cabernet Fran Here which I also think is important so I I hope you don’t mind us springing that on you oh I no thank you very much for sharing your excellent wines I’m looking forward to talking to Laura about putting an order together uh and getting my hands on some
Of these because um like wow and and Michael like we haven’t had a chance to travel together but this is a real treat so thank Laura zavier Michael thank you for putting this together uh zavier was a pleasure seeing you again and uh I
Hope we uh uh we we Andre and I can get out to your caves because you just don’t get invited to everybody’s cave every often all right so this is our first podcast of uh 20124 Happy New Year Michael happy New Year zavier thank you Happy New Year
Laura I we’ll have to get our hands on a Gala it’s a French tradition that doesn’t really uh make it here in Canada but you you’re going to love it Michael I’m in whatever it is I’m in does it require me uh it it doesn’t require me
To take my clothes off right no it requires you to eat oh then I’m in I’m in and and if you get the the magic bean that’s hidden in the cake it means you’re the king for the night and do I get get to go to a cake oh my God he’s
Never had a g can you believe that oh no no I’ve never had it but I’ve do I get to go to your cave is that my uh okay we’re going to his cave we get that all right support the podcast patreon.com talking wine Andre wine review Andre wi
Review on social media Andre win R.C is my website um our sponsorship with valaka is over so we’re looking for new sponsors so by all means if you have a few dollars we’re not expensive to sponsor but uh we appreciate the support that helps us keep things going and I’m
Michael Pingus of Michael Pingus wi interview.com again a big thank you to Laura a an even bigger thank you to zavier who’s traveled just a little bit further and um I uh I am on social media as the grape guy Andre thank you for actually liking one of the wine makers I brought
To town I didn’t actually have anything to do with he just came on his own steam um and good night thanks for listening please subscribe to two guys talking wine on iTunes two guys talking wine is produced by Jim Ray Adam Durant and Ken little